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    Oct162010

    Average Medtronic Settlement Is $33,000 Dollars

    Somewhat coincidentally, I drove past a Medtronic facility the day this was announced.   

    “Medtronic is pleased we were able to negotiate terms that were mutually agreeable to the parties,” Christopher Garland, a company spokesman, said in a telephone interview. The settlement covers about 8,100 cases, or “virtually all” U.S. claims, Garland said.

    The settlement resolves cases in both federal and state courts.

    $33,000 Average Payout

    It will provide an average payout of more than $33,000 to patients who have defibrillators with wires that have broken or are considered likely to break. The amount will depend on the extent of the injuries and defects.

    Source: Medtronic to Pay $268 Million, Settle Suits Over Defibrillator Wire Flaws - Bloomberg

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    Reader Comments (702)

    Daisy they said holidays they didn't say what holiday or when,that's how they get you.

    December 26, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterEarl

    When in bondage all you can do is rattle your chains. We have contacted our State Attorney General's fraud section. We have been in touch with Mr. Alexander. I intend to contact every local candidate up for re-election.Until the so-called settlement plays out, there is very little we can do except, as the old expression goes "Don't just sit there, Bitch a little" I don't have much hope of collecting a damn dime from these horse theives. Thats just as well because they could not print enough money to pay for what many of us have been through.
    To those who have lost loved ones, my prayer is that a power much higher than this miserable den of theives can grant you peace as you struugle with your loss.
    To those who have not yet been harmed, I hoped the case will at least force corrective action by Medtronic.
    For my situation, I have been shocked more times than I can count, culminating in 13 hits in less than 2 hrs. Should that ever happen again,I will use an ice pick or kitchen knife and kill the damned thing myself. If we could shock some of Medtronics managers and lawyers this nightmare would have a very different outcome.
    If this blog sight is silly. it at least gives a chance to vent and not feel that we each suffer alone. I wish for everyone of you a much better outcome than I expect. Thanks for sharing your stories.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterGeorge

    GEORGE; I certainly appreciate your kind words as Im sure do many others hereabouts. And I wish you the best in your efforts, just one thing, if you don't mind sharing it with the world, what the heck happened ? Did you, like me 'opt out' or did you 'slip between the cracks' ? Boy the more posts I read the luckier I feel in only being zapped four (4) times, of course any number larger than zero is too high. I cannot imagine thirteen (13) times, I would have gone berserk myself. Anyway thanks and may the coming years be good to and for you sir.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered Commenterdavid lotz

    Not all of us with this thing may need to worry. I have had mine since July of 2007 and so far, no problems. Just one shock and it was attributed to the heart skipping beats, not the leads. Just had it checked out before Christmas 2011, and the lead capacitance was only 463. They don't start worrying till it gets up into the 3300 range. Testing every three months also checks for noise ...that is a sign the unit may be fracture prone. I have no noise as of the last test. So, going on 4 years I feel pretty lucky at this point. It's my guess they mixed good leads with bad leads... and it then becomes a turkey shoot on who got the bad leads. The recall started just after my doctor sold me his last stock unit. I was not supposed to get this model, but he had it laying around and sold it to the insurance company...I think he knew they were having trouble but decided his bonus was worth my risk. I no longer use this guy in Fort Lauderdale anymore. What I find interesting (hadn't known this before this blog site) was the fraud and conspiracy between Medtronic's and the Lawyers...including the settlement had allowed for lawyer legal fees in the original $268 million...and we still must pay them 40% more. That was a surprise. I learned more from this site than from my doctors then and now, Medtronic's and my attorney. Can't get anything answered from the attorneys-Neblett, Beard & Arsenault, in Alexandria, Louisiana -got them off TV add in Ft. Lauderdale....prior to signing, they responded almost immediately to my emails or phone calls. So, more than just venting, if the facts presented are true facts, then we each learn more and can pursue other actions on our own or perhaps by grouping together for strength.. and perhaps funding... if that becomes the case.

    Although I am better off medically than a lot of people sharing their experiences, I still worry when mine will go. I was told these have a lifespan of 15 years before replacement is needed, (be 79 by then) and the battery will be replaced at least twice in that time period. I tried to have a doctor take it out after I saw the recall in 2008 but two cardiac surgeons refused. No one wanted responsibility, and the insurance wouldn't pay unless it was having problems...so they stuck me with it. I would like to know sites that have more info on them regarding fraud, lying, and collusion about this whole settlement. Anything comes to mind, please blog it.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

    Hey PAT; another excellent post lady, chock full of information without fingerpointing. NICE. I wish I could recomend a site to glean information from, but the best I can do is suggest that you hit as many "complaints board" type sites for the rant and rave crowds usually incorrect data (you might get a good tidbit ). Sometimes what you do not see is as informative as what you do see, for instance, about a week ago I simply goooogled in "fda warning letter to medtronic inc and boy did I ever get more than I expected. I gave up on 'page 30' after 273 entries. Of that 273 , one hundred eighty one (181) were about MDTs lightning response to some housekeeping faux pax . Please name me the first 181 sites that come to mind. Quickly now, I've got to move along. Stumped, well every pissant tin horned "never seem em before, never will again" sites. So what does it all mean ? Well when taken along with the ONE (1) relating to the sprint fidelis saga, it is obvious the Medtronic Inc KICKBACK AND BRIBERY machine is still doing just fine thank you.
    You CAN get factual albeit co-conspiritorial data from the FDA website although it takes a lot of digging to chuck the shuck. You would be amazed to find out just how long MDT takes to file a report which the "LAW" sez must be done in thirty DAYS (30), eighteen MONTHS seems about the average and I personally feel that if the Federal Evidence Code is anything like Californias both the FDA, FBI, DOJ, AND Medtronic inc can be forced to tell theiir LIES in court in front of a hopefully interested jury. Well as usual I have rattled on way past usefullness or common sense. I have NOT been able to get anything other than the DOJ puffpiece on the cardiologist qui tam $23.5million KICKBACK debacle, BUT I WOULD SURE LIKE TO HAVE SOMETHING OTHER THAN 9well you know) BLUESHIRT.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered Commenterdavid lotz

    Not long after I posted my blog regarding the non-response of my attorney..I gto this....better late than neve,r even though they had no new info. And, David...it's Mr. Not Ms. At least it was the last time I looked in the mirror....Don't let the PATT in my name fool you...,It's a nickname from my last name, Patterson...Real name Gary, but hardly use it after 60 some years.

    Mr. Patterson – I apologize for the delay in responding during the holiday break. I do not know the answer to most of your questions. I do not know the tax implications of the DOJ settlement and do not have the document itself. We were not involved in that issue. I suspect that it is a public document and if not ready available on the internet, it could be found on the federal court filing system (PACER) or though a Freedom of Information request. Let me know if you need anything else. Thanks. Best, J. R.

    JOHN RANDALL WHALEY

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

    OK I am back. Hey Patt, am I understanding that you have not had a fracture yet. What I keep seeing on these blogs is people that are only able to register and get 1000 dollars are the people that are not getting award letters and having little to no response from their lawyers. It is a shame, but that is what I have noticed. I don't think the;y believe you can appeal if you are in tier 1. but I have been wrong before. Just something I noticed. Any one else seen this.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPlaivixman

    I received my award letter today and you mean to tell me that out of 33,000.00 dollars most of us only get a measly 1,000.00 dollars, with no explanation on were the other 32,000.00 dollars went to of when the payout will be,these son-on-of-a bitches ripped us off like the lawyers in the phen-phen case did,I'm sorry but I want justice served!judges,lawyers,and other unknown people were paid off with our money that was coming to us.I am going to contact my attorney first thing in the morning on this,I want a list on what was deducted and were it went to and why.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterEarl

    Patt, I am so sorry that you were so mis-informid by you attorney. Number 1, print media said the average was 33000 dollars. Not one thing I recieved from my lawyer said anything about 33000 dollars. It said tier I 1000=2500, tier II 12000-35000 and Tier III above 35000 dollars. All people who had the lead but had not had a fracture were in tier I. People who had fractures w/shocks and replacement would be in tier II. All those that had major issues, ie infections, long hospital stays and or death would be in tier III. It also expected there to be 15000 people involved. I was sent all this in Nov. of 2010. If you didn't get this kind of info from you lawyer, by god you need to SUE HIM. He has done you an injustice.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPlavixman

    Hey Plaivixman, Nice to see you're still around. I don't know when anyone is really going to get a check regarding the bigger monies. After talking with my lawyers paralegal, she actually told me to file an appeal before I turned down the offer (which she also said I couldn't refuse because I signed a contract with them), so I sent the appeal, buying time to figure out what to do next. In my case, I might be better off taking their next offer since I might be able to outlive the device and get another one someday. My letter was for $1000. In any event I am awaiting the appeal to see if they go to $2500. I haven't contacted any attorney on a one to one level yet because this Medtronic needs to come to some conclusion before I want to do that.

    EARL-just saw your post. I would like to see where the $33,000 figure first came from. If there were 14,000 claims and each got $33,000, then that would be 4.62 billion, not 268 million. I never got any information that Plaivixman related in the three tiers. They said I was Tier 1 and that was that. Anybody have any other information we can assimilate on this thing? You must be tier one also. The people that had surgery, removals, lead replacements should be in line for the most dollar amounts in the settlement...I just wonder what happens to the person who has a fracture in the next 3-7 years? What's left for them? Even Medicare gets involved and can claim your award if they pay to replace a defective unit. That's why I was told that up to 40% of your award could be help back for the 7 years...lots of good that would do you if you're dead.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

    Patt, There is money set aside for those people. As the matter of fact, Judge Kyle rejected the first amounts given by attorneys because he said there wasn't enough left for future claims. If you have a fracture in the next 6 years you will be eligable for additional payouts. They will be very similar to those who had issues prior too the settlement from my understanding.

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPlavixman

    I have stayed out of this until tonight and just been a voyeur on the site. Well, the hell with privacy. If this mess does not qualify as a major "cluster f---" then what does? My name is George, My wife has posted here as Pat. She witnessed me being thrown out of a heavy wooden "captain's chair" and tossed around the kitchen like a rag doll the day I got hit so many times. I managed to get to a bottle of Amiodorone and took a double dose, so by the time an ambulance arrived the shocks had let up.
    David L, thank you for your reply to my first post. I did not opt out. When the recall lawsuits started, every two-bit shyster in the country was trying to get my signature. I kept fighting Pat off until we heard from an in state firm that the fertilizer had hit the oscillator, and it was now or never. The last time I was involved in a class action, it was over placement of the gas tank on a pick up truck. I won a coupon for a $1000 discount if I wanted to trade for a new truck!
    We got a letter from the Law Firm Pat selected, I am level 2, award estimated but not certain Out of it we have to pay the attorneys fees. I also had to have the unit replaced, a new lead placed, and the old lead capped. since removing the old one may have been fatal and would have required open heart surgery. Best I can figure the math, I'll be lucky if I get that "I Love Medtronic" bumper sticker Pat came up with. Best of luck to everyone here. If any of you wish to discuss anything in a more private setting let me know and we will exchange emails or phone numbers.
    By the way, I love the idea of a warning shot across the bow, but I think it may be time for a couple of well placed shots into the wheel house. God bless you all....I'm outa here ps I'm typing on a net book,please forgive typos

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterGeorge

    I was going over information on this blog site, read a little about the person who started it all, Justinian Lane, the attorney who is plastered all over these pages...and then it just dawned on me...With all the blogs on HIS post, why the hell isn't he coming forward with some advice or intuitive comments on what is happening? HE STARTED IT. Perhaps it's just another way for another lawyer to get into our minds and read or thoughts so he can pass it along to his buddies handling the settlement? And is it possible his offices are also involved in the suit and has clients with the same problems? I looked and looked through some blogs to see if he had any comments at all, and outside of doing the short article intro...nothing. If it was my blog...for the sake of getting new business...I would be looking at some of the comments and doing a little pro bono for the folks spending the time here. Most of us on your blog could use a good attorney's input...if there is such a thing. So, are you "watching" ? What do you say to that Justinian???? Are you just another fire engine chaser? or a real Matlock. What? I can't hear you!

    December 27, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

    Welcome back Plavixman. As always you are very enlightening. Thank you for always being the voice or reason. I always know I am on the right track with my reasoning and thinking , when you respond. I am not a lawyer but I tried to understand the information that we received. I can honestly say we are on the same page. I understand everything the way that you do. No, disrespect but a lot of the information posted on this blog regarding tiers is misinformation, I often wonder if different lawyers are sending different information. When you left I had hoped you would comeback. You seem to be right on target!

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterCynthia

    Cynthia, thanks so much for your kind words. My Grandfather always said, agure with a fool long enough and purdy soon people will wonder who the fool is. So I just had to get out for a while. Nothing we do here is going to fix this problem. We all (at least most of us) sighed an agreement that was not proably in our best interest, but we did it. So now we just have to move on and not let it happen again. Not only to our selves, but to others also.
    HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE AND I HOPE 2012 IS A SUCCESS TO EVERYONE. THAT GOES FOR DAVID AND MIKE AS WELL.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPlavixman

    My husband passed away at 57. He had a bad lead, which I did not know until months after his death. We had never been notified by Medtronics. Since his death certificate did not specify lead failure, I have no idea of my settlement status. When I questioned his death, the cardiologist told me the defibrillator tried to fire many times, but failed to do so. The attorney here did not submit the defibrillator report with my husband's death certificate and medical record.......the MOST important piece of information. I was told it is too late to file additional paperwork.....so, the attorney who once was quick to respond to my e-mails, now does not answer, but has told me the law firm in Texas is now handling my case........they messed up big time.

    As we all know, this case gives the appearance of not being handled in a truthful manner, and if so, we may not be held to the paperwork signed. Just a thought.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterSharon

    SHARON, sorry to hear of your loss. The one thing you "can take to the bank" in this whole degenerate saga is that Medtronic Inc will vigorously seek sanctions against the very people they defrauded. You might want to read the Confidentiality Agreement that is part of the settlement. If I might suggest something without a comment from others on this site it would be to contact Don Alexander at his email of donalexander557@gmail.com. He has so far not had any good results in seeking recompense but I get the feeling he will continue till he does prevail. He is going to 'school' me when I file my action next month in Sacramento, CA and perhaps with his knowledge and my blind chutzpah something good will happen. Of course you have to consider what your beloved would do in your situation, but if you are not ready to 'roll over' on this matter I suspect Mr Anderson can give you the wisdom of his experience . HAPPY NEW YEAR

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered Commenterdavid lotz

    Mr Alexander, should you read this please forgive me for saying "Anderson" . I am a horses pitoot most of the time.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered Commenterdavid lotz

    From what I understood in talking to Mr. Alexander, we might be able to opt out of the settlement by filing a motion 60b, although I do not know how to do that. Our family needs whatever settlement we can get now, so that might not be an option for us, considering how long we have waited to get something already. I guess that might delay any settlement until after we are all dead, but I guess our children could reap the benefits. The way I read the RICO act if new developments occur in a case within a year after a settlement then you can file a motion 60b. It sure sounds to me like there have been new developments with Medtronic's settlement to the Justice Department for the bribes they paid to the doctors to install their units over their competitors' units. And couldn't we possibly have a lawsuit against the doctors who got paid for installing the defective units? RICO provides a 10-year statutue of limitations for bringing action. By the way, RICO is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization act, and bribes do fall under their guidelines for initiating a lawsuit. However, Medtronic did not admit to any wrongdoing when they made the settlement with the Justice Department. But why did the Justice Department pay the whistleblowers a few million dollars if there was no wrongdoing on Medronic's part? This is such a complicated mess. I have contacted our Attorney General's Office but only yesterday, so naturally have not heard back from them. Guess the next step might be to find a lawyer who would file a RICO suit on a contingency fee basis, but I read that it is hard to get a lawyer to take a case on a contingency fee basis under RICO, but it might be worth a try. Any ideas from somone else where we should go from here or should we just take the small pittance from Medtronic and let them sweep the whole sordid mess under the rug?

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPat

    Sharon, my wife Pat and I join David in our feelings toward you for your loss. The more I learn about this situation, the more dumbfounded I become. Fifty-seven is too young to say goodbye.
    Related to what David has said about Mr Alexander, please send him an e-mail if you feel that you want to persue the issue. The court system has pretty much slamed, locked, and dead-bolted the courthouse door to victims of faulty medical devices and practices. Mr. Alexander is attacking through the side door, down the fire escape, and any other way he can find by basing his action on behavior by Medtronic that constitutes fraud, conspiracy, and racketeering under the RICO act that proves Medtronic to be a "corrupt organization". There is no certainty that he will prevail, but I can't see anything on the horizon that offers more promise. He estimates that he has about a 50/50 chance.
    My wife talked to Mr Alexander and was very impressed with him. He does have a hearing deficit that makes it hard for him to understand conversation on the phone, which is why I suggest e-mail.
    Surely if enough of us keep sounding the alarm this injustice someone down the line will eventually benefit, even if most of us don't live long enough to see it happen.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterGeorge

    to PAT (with one "T"). I don't know what to say about your situation re needing the money, and I sure ain't qualified to give advice to anyone, buuut I do know two plus two is ALWAYS four (plus tax of course) and somewhere in all this dirty little secret there exists the reason that Medtronic Inc determined it was in IT's best intrest to payout t5he so called $268million when it is exempt from being sued due to PREEMPTION. It's lapdog, the dishonorable judge kyle decided the very next day that the was no possibility for anyone to glean ducats from this corporate turnip, WHICH MADE EVERYONE THINK THAT THIS WAS THE ONLY CHANCE THEY HAD FOR ANY MINUTE RECOVERY OF THE COSTS THEY PAID. I feel it is very safe to assume this was all hashed out before the settlement was announced, but the question remains, WHY, why would Medtronic pay this quarter billion ? Without good cause they would be violating the rights of MDT shareholders and open itself up to suits by them as well as the Securities and Exchange Commission (the SEC). Ya, they have been sued for $40million by a small group of sharehoders buying into MDT between July and October 2007, but the SEC aint after MDT. There is of course the question of the constitutionality of the Preemption laws. I ponder the juxtaposition of the "equal protection clause" implicit in the due process clause of the fifth (5th) amendment to our Constitution and the "class" created when the Americans with Disabilities Act was created. Could be, huh? I dunno. Or perhaps MDT was moved "off the schnide" by the threats included in the plethora of actions filed by someone nearly universelly (sic) bad mouthed on this site and on "recalls in the news" site, MR Don Alexander. Perhaps MDT felt he would eventually find a judge it didn't own or who was not part of the good ol boy network and the preemption window would start to crack and one day maybe be shattered . I welcome ANY thoughts anyone may wish to share and I promise to be as openminded and respectful as they in any discussion in whatever format chosen. WE WILL NEVER SEE AN ACCOUNTING BY MDT OR THE COURTS for the "settlement" and anyone who asks just might find themself facing the ire of both of them for VIOLATING the confidentiality agreement they signed. Each of us has to face this shitty choice of action(s) HAPPY NEW YEAR PAT nPATT n MIKE n EARL n GEORGE n PLAVI n everyone else and let us hope we never face another year like this one.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered Commenterdavid lotz

    The Civil RICO suit I filed in April 2010 is now on appeal before the US Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit. The central issue is whether buying a defective defibrillator which was fraudulently dumped into the stream of interstate commerce can be construed as a property and/or financial loss under the Federal Civil RICO Statute. The statute allows triple damages for property/financial losses but nothing for personal injury. I was billed $72,340 dollars for my defibrillator including the cost to implant the defective device. If I win my appeal, Medtronic is dead meat because the documentation already exists that Medtronic has practiced a pattern of criminal behavior over the past six years which qualifies Medtronic as violating the statute through bribery, perjury, mail fraud, fraud upon Medicare/Medicaid, retailiation against whistleblowers, murder in the third degree, and a host of other felonies. However, the relevant statute of limitations is becoming a factor. Anyone wishing to file a Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 60B motion has best do so immediately and do not cash a check from the settlement fund. I am in the process of pushing for a Congressional investigation by contacting members of Congress by fax and email. I have also contacted virtually all national news media anchor persons asking why no crimonal charges are being filed against Medtronic management.
    I hope everyone has a happy and prosperous New Year.

    December 28, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterDon Alexander

    Thank you Mr. Alexander.

    December 29, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPat

    I looked up what Don was talking about-Federal Rules of Order-and thought I might share the explaination with all of you that, like myself, didn't understand the principal. You can view the explaination at this site. http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_60.

    Don, for those of us who can or cannot afford to file this motion, how much does it cost to get this accomplished. if you don't mind answering.

    December 29, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

    I also found this article about Medtronic. Seems they have been making "payoffs" on defective products in other areas other than Pacemakers. You can read the entire article and more regarding the Pacemaker recall at this site. http://www.awkolaw.com/medtronic/


    Update: Critics Increase Scrutiny of Medtronic-Researcher Ties

    MedtronicThe cozy relationship between doctors reporting on their research and Medtronic, a medical device company paying them royalties and consulting fees, continues to be investigated by an increasing number of critics. Faultfinders question the potential influence Medtronic's payments may have had on the investigators' scientific judgment and their published reports.

    Looking into this relationship, to mention a few, are The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, MedPage Today, The New York Times, The Wallstreet Journal, a U.S. Senate Finance Committee, and a Senate Special Committee on Aging.

    Doctors who co-authored reports on clinical studies of a bone fusion product called Infuse Bone Graft made no mention or downplayed adverse effects of using the product in spinal fusion surgery or other spinal surgeries, according to editorials and other articles in The Spine Journal. The journal devoted an entire issue to questioning the doctor-Medtronic relationship.

    The doctors, 15 surgeons, failed to reveal in 13 published clinical studies any adverse reactions to Infuse and the millions of dollars they were receiving from Medtronic. Payment data indicate that some authors had associations with Medtronic valued at more than $10 million.

    Other researchers were reporting side effects from the bone fusion product. "Complications and adverse events range from excess cancers and serious inflammatory reactions to fertility problems caused by retrograde ejaculation and radiating leg pain," reports MedPage Today.

    "The under-reporting of adverse events in the 13 original reports was most troublesome, Carragee and colleagues suggested," MedPage Today reported June 28, 2011.

    Eugene Carragee, M.D., is at Stanford University's outpatient clinic in Redwood City, California. Carragee, editor-in-chief of The Spine Journal, wrote, "This risk of adverse events associated with rhBMP-2 [the Infuse product] is 10 to 50 times the original estimates reported in the industry-sponsored peer-reviewed publications."

    The Spine Journal censured the 13 papers written by the doctors who received a median of at least $12 million to $16 million per study from Medtronic.
    Update: Medtronic Notifies Physicians About Glitches in EnRhythm Pacemaker

    In a letter distributed to physicians worldwide, Medtronic has reported battery-related issues in its EnRhythm and EnRhythm MRI pacemaker series. In the notice, Medtronic informs physicians to avoid replacing the device, which may put patients at risk.

    Meanwhile, Medtronic is working to fix the problem through a software update expected by midyear. According to Medtronic, though the battery glitch leads to inaccurate voltage readings, this does not pose any serious health risks to patients. You can read the entire article and more regarding the Psacemaker recall at this site. http://www.awkolaw.com/medtronic/

    Unnecessary pacemaker replacements stem from confusion about battery-voltage readings during routine exams. These readings were lower than the level tracked by the pacemakers themselves, incorrectly suggesting that the pacemaker needed to be replaced. This tracking is done to provide data for a so-called elective replacement indicator.

    This is the latest glitch reported in a product manufactured by Medtronic; however, the medical device manufacturer has been subject to past recalls and safety issues associated with its other products. To learn more about faulty Medtronic products that may lead to devastating personal injury or death, please read the information below.

    December 29, 2011 | Unregistered CommenterPatt Patterson

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